Money and Christianity
Posted on 15. Sep, 2009 by chris in chris ritter
My wife and I have been taking part in a very interesting 13 week seminar by a man named Dave Ramsey. Dave is a well known author and speaker, and is a Christian man. The seminar is called “Financial Peace University” and is set up so that a group of people get together once a week, watch a video lecture for about an hour, and then discuss it together. We’ve been doing it for four weeks now and have really enjoyed it. While not all of the topics he goes through are immediately important to us, they almost all will be sooner or later. From savings to investing, from dumping debt to learning how to invest, he covers it all.
The reason I bring this up is this: it seems to me that within the Christian community and the history of our faith, opinions about money have been as different as people’s opinions on whether or not Michael Jordan is the best basketball player of all time (for the record, he most certainly is). What I mean is that some people take verses of the Bible and use it to defend saving your money, leaving an inheritance for your kids, saving for retirement, investing, and so on. And then others take verses from the Bible and use it to say that we should give all our money away, keep as little as possible for ourselves, trust that God will sustain us and that we don’t need a whole lot in savings and on and on. To be honest, it sort of makes my head hurt just thinking about it. Dave Ramsey uses the Bible quite a bit when giving financial principles – the interesting thing is, it seems like they are literally ALL out of Proverbs. Then other people never use Proverbs and only use certain things Jesus said about money, which may or may not even be relevant to the financial principle they are trying to make.
I don’t have some grand way of wrapping this up, other than to say I’d be interested in your opinions and comments if you have any. What have you heard about money and principles about finances that you liked or didn’t like? Do you understand the tension that I’m speaking of in this blog or does it seem to come from nowhere? One more thing… I Timothy 6:9 says “But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction.” What sort of ruin and destruction have you seen come with the ungodly “desire for riches” that Paul speaks about – either in your personal life, the lives of those you love, or by observation of our culture.
kathy Heisleman
Sep 15th, 2009
Hey Chris!
I’ll just run with this, not going to give a well-researched thesis on money or anything (as if I could), just some thoughts…so those of you who read this….just IMO…(and the only thing I know about Michael Jordan is those sneakers)
I think you are right about the dichotomy of opinions on finances and stewardship within the Christian community–many people have really strong opinions; I certainly do.
I think it’s so great about what you said about Dave Ramsey using (almost) only verses from Proverbs. It’s like people justifying hedonism or fatalism as valid Christian options simply using Ecclesiastes…
That said, I would certainly lean strongly towards attempting to make a defensible Christian position on finances through the filter of Christ’s words, and other NT teachings on money.
Even the principle of the tithe is OT, and isn’t binding on NT believers. I can find you the reference on that , but i’m sure you know it…So, since that is such a clear NT teaching, I would always opt to interpret “the unclear using the clear” teachings in this subject as on all others.
I love your quote from 1Timothy, I think you have cut to the heart of the NT teaching…add Matthew 5 & 6, and some plaudits from Paul’s epistles on the sacrificial giving of the church in Jerusalem, and I think you go a long way in defining a NT financial statement.
One of things that bugs me the most about Dave Ramsey is his slogan “Worship=Workship”. I’ve heard many definitions of ‘Worship” but that one is really far afield IMO.
I think worship for the Christian is totally all about ascribing value and honor and glory to God in all his Trinity, an attitude of adoration and gratitude for His Grace-his totally unmerited favor towards us as fallen creatures.
To equate worship with work(s) of any kind is very upsetting to me.
I know that there is a point of responsibility for a Christian in providing for their family and not leaving a millstone of debt, BUT, I can’t reconcile Dave’s stated end goal of amassing wealth with “Store up not treasures for yourselves on earth”. I just don’t think they meet anywhere.
I am also concerned about his vague assertions that ‘God honors diligence”. Well, yes and no. “God helps those who help themselves” isn’t in the Bible, altho a surprising amount of people think it is! lol. Also, there isn’t any consideration about what type of diligence is being referred to, and what type of reward is promised.
Dave Ramsey certainly has valid points about not going in to debt, etc. However, there are other definitely Christian people and organizations (such as Larry Burkett through Focus on the Family, and Crown Financial MInistries) who have been around a long time, and who are non-profit organizations. I can’t justify charging a family who may already be in serious debt so much money for a simple course in money management…And no, he doesn’t charge less for churches.
I am also concerned about how much time and effort is put into Ramsey’s amazingly long and detailed efforts to account for every penny. There’s not much room in there for buying a jacket for a homeless person, and I am also concerned about just how very much time his course leads couples to use up trying to pin down something that is never going to be as containable as you’d want it to be…no amount of contingency funds will hold you up as well as Christ’s heavenly hands under you.
We have known personally of several young couples who started into this course with the best of intentions-being good stewards-and ended up having it cause disagreements, stress and over-emphasis on money. I think that their time would have been spent more profitably in just being together, reading, serving. In other words, putting memories and shared experiences into the “Bank” of their marriage.
We know from experience that when kids come, problems multiply, and we have gone a long way during times of crisis in simply recalling some times of just being together.
I think it’s really neat Chris that you’ve blogged on this. I think the reason that you’re not settled on this is that the Holy Spirit is telling you that something is not quite right….
Rick
Sep 15th, 2009
I am not a fan of Dave Ramsey’s. He is a debt-free Pharisee.
Your are to own stuff; it isn’t supposed to own you. God put the material world here for our use, our pleasure, and to bless God and others with. While you have to use wisdom and care with the use of resources that God has provided, Jesus didn’t come to saddle us with a bunch of rules to follow, but offers us freedom – freedom to love and serve Him.
Ramsey would boil all of life down to never getting into any type of debt, even if it means eating beans every day three times per day and being malnourished, driving a jalopy, even if it is unsafe and exposes you and your family to danger, and having only one goal in life – to be “debt free”.
His spirit is not Christian – I have heard and seen him – he is rude, legalistic, and not the least bit empathetic. I have been angered every time I have been exposed to him.
I will tell you that at life’s end, I won’t care how much money that I am leaving behind – and I know that I can’t take it with me. I will care what good that I have done with it, what experience that I have shared with my wife and family, etc. It won’t matter a bit whether I have amassed a fortune or have debt.
Just as legalistic Christians manage to squeeze all of the joy out of life by worrying all of the time about following the rules, all of the Dave Ramseys will spend every waking moment concerned about where every last penny is going and looking down their noses at others who buy a new car or going out to a meal from time to time.
One last thought – God does provide for and care about us. To be wasteful with money and other resources because He will provide often misses the point – He already has. He does expect us to be good stewards of what He has provided, and will not entrust us with more resources or more responsibility until we show that we will handle them the way He wants us to. Those who say “give it all away because He will provide” may or may not be correct. He has a different direction for each of us and at different times. He may in fact be leading us to give everything away and, as He did with Abraham and his son, be looking for faith and obedience. On the other hand, He may have given us resources as His provision for us and expected us to be good stewards with them.
I don’t think that there is a single answer for this other than to say that we should be willing to go wherever God leads.
kathy Heisleman
Sep 17th, 2009
Rick…do you have a last name? I think we should label our submissions to this blog….
chris
Sep 18th, 2009
Kathy – it is Rick Weyuker – at least I’m pretty sure it is unless it’s some other Rick that comments on here besides Rick Weyuker. We have had a lot of Ricks at our church!